Newsletter
- 27th November 2014
National
Archives misfiles census EXCLUSIVE
Save 50% at
Genes Reunited EXCLUSIVE
When
'brick walls' are a good thing
Extra
information in parish registers
Advanced
search techniques: surnames
Poor
law records newly indexed
Was
that 1913 picture 'Photoshopped'?
Adopted ancestors: latest news
Decision time? Big discounts on DNA tests
Bad
news - FamilySearch to discontinue copy images
Mental
health records to go online
Ancestry
launches Lunacy Patients Admission Registers
Google
belatedly follow our example
What
a coincidence - or was it?
The LostCousins newsletter is usually published
fortnightly. To access the previous newsletter (dated 15th November)
click here, for an index to articles from 2009-10
click here, for a list of articles from 2011
click here and for a list of articles from
2012-13 click here. Or use a Google search prefixed by 'site:lostcousins.com'
Whenever possible links are included to the
websites or articles mentioned in the newsletter (they are highlighted in blue or purple and underlined, so you can't miss them). If one of
the links doesn't work this normally indicates that you're using adblocking software - try disabling it temporarily (or else
use a different browser, such as Chrome).
To go to the main LostCousins website click the logo
at the top of this newsletter. If you're not already a member, do join - it's
FREE, and you'll get an email to alert you whenever there's a new edition of
this newsletter available!
National Archives
misfiles census EXCLUSIVE
Eagle-eyed LostCousins member Brian made
an amazing discovery when browsing the 1861 England & Wales Census - he
discovered 6 pages from the 1871 Census that had been erroneously inserted!
This isn't a problem related to one
census site - they all have the same information - so the problem clearly dates
back many years. The result is that well over 100 people who are apparently
missing in 1871 are listed twice in 1861 (but with different ages).
If you have a Findmypast subscription
you can see the misfiled pages (which relate to Wattisfield
in Suffolk) here.
Well done, Brian!
Note:
have you made any similar discoveries? If so, do let me know.
Save 50% at Genes Reunited EXCLUSIVE
From today until Friday 12th December
you can save 50% on 12 month Standard subscriptions to Genes Reunited when
you click here and use the offer code LCDEC - bringing the price down from £20 to just £10,
which is less than you'd pay for a 6 month subscription!
(To secure your exclusive discount you'll need to enter the promotional code on the payment page.)
Genes Reunited needs no introduction -
originally known as Genes Connected when it launched in early 2003, it was a
spin-off from the well-known Friends Reunited site. There are two main ways to
use Genes Reunited - you can search for specific relatives, or you can upload
your tree as a Gedcom file (almost all family tree
programs can export your tree in this format). Other members of the site can't
see your tree unless you give them permission - similarly you can't see their
trees unless they give you permission.
It's also possible to build a tree on
Genes Reunited, though I generally wouldn't recommend relying on ANY online
tree as your main repository of data because programs that run on your own
computer are generally more powerful and flexible (Family
Historian is the program I generally recommend when asked).
All Genes Reunited subscriptions now
include 50 free pay-per-view credits, which would normally cost £4.95 - and not
only do you get 50 credits with your initial subscription, you get another 50
each time you renew. Genes Reunited offers access to most of the British
records that you'd find at findmypast, including the British Newspaper Archive.
Tip:
when you meet a cousin at Genes Reunited (or any other site, for that matter),
why not invite them to join LostCousins? Connecting with your cousins through
more than one site helps to ensure that you don't lose touch.
I don't get a lot of time to spend on my
own family tree, but as I hinted in my last newsletter the newly-released Devon parish records
provided a lure I couldn't resist. My first step was to download colour digital
images of the register pages that I'd viewed on my visit to the Record Office
in Exeter, almost a decade ago - they're so much easier to interpret than black
and white microfilms or photocopies.
I then set about finding the records
that would verify - or disprove - the parts of my Devon tree that I hadn't had
time to check when I was at Exeter. Some of the information had been taken from
an online tree, and we all know how prone to error these are - but fortunately
it was one of those rare exceptions, and I was able to verify everything that I
had included in my own tree, all the way back to my 8G grandparents who married
in 1689.
Note:
8G is shorthand for great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great. I usually
try to avoid abbreviations, but it simply wouldn't have been feasible in this
article.
At this point I hadn't added any new
names to my tree, but what I'd done was absolutely essential - there was no
point trying to trace further back, or add branches, if the trunk of the tree
was rotten.
Now I set about tracing the female
lines, something that simply wasn't feasible on my visit to the Record Office -
even if I'd spent a month (or a year) there. During three days of intensive
research I was able to add to my tree two
new 5G grandparents, two new 6G grandparents, six new 7G grandparents, eight
new 8G grandparents, five new 9G grandparents, and four new 10G grandparents.
That's 27 new direct ancestors (and more brothers and sisters than I'm prepared
to count), all in one weekend - absolutely amazing!
Tip:
you'll find a list of the Devon parishes that are included in the collection,
together with the dates of coverage, if you follow this link.
When 'brick walls'
are a good thing
You might think that after a weekend
like that I'd be faced with fewer 'brick walls' than when I started - but
genealogy doesn't work like that, because behind every 'brick wall' there are
at least two more.
In fact, thanks to Findmypast's new
Devon records I now have 13 more 'brick walls' than I did a week ago - and I'm
absolutely over the moon about it! Every one of these new 'brick walls'
represents a new family line and a new ancestral surname, each presenting
opportunities to find out more as new records become available. My
great-great-great grandfather's Devon tree has truly blossomed!
One handy feature of Findmypast
is the way that it indicates which records you've previously viewed - and as a
result I realised that I was downloading the same register pages two or three
times, because there were relatives from different family lines whose baptisms,
marriages, or burials were on that page. When you're working online this is a
minor inconvenience (if that), but just imagine how tedious it would have been
if I'd been staring at a microfiche reader in the Record Office!
I'll return to 'brick walls' and how to
knock them down in a future article, but it's reminding you now that whilst
most baptisms took place a few weeks or months after the child's birth,
sometimes they were baptised as teenagers (or even as adults). According to the
register my 5G grandfather Joshua Pepperell was 16 years old when he was
baptised in 1770 at the church of St Winwalloe Onocaus (what a mouthful!), in East Portlemouth.
Tip:
once you've found the baptism of an ancestor the next step is to look for their
siblings - this helps to pinpoint when the parents married.
Extra information in
parish registers
There was a discussion on the Society of
Genealogists list recently about the extra marks in parish registers - which,
because different vicars had different habits, didn't always mean the same
thing. For example, a 'P' might indicate a private baptism, but it could also
identify a pauper burial.
It's much easier to understand the
'code' if you browse the register pages on either side of the event you're
interested in - often a pattern will emerge. This simple technique can also
help you to interpret difficult handwriting - and, believe me,
one of the vicars of Stokenham had appalling
handwriting!
(Not only was his handwriting bad, his
spelling was even worse. It took me quite a while to prove to my own satisfaction
that my 8G grandfather Christopher Jeffery had been recorded as 'Custener' when he was baptised in 1666.)
Between 1696-1705 the Marriage Duty Act imposed a tax on births, marriages,
and deaths (and also on unmarried men who might otherwise have escaped
liability); a consequence of this was that records of births had to be kept,
and in the parish of Stokenham they were recorded in
the baptism register - a handy bonus!
You'll also find that occasionally the
occupation of a father or groom will be given - it was only after 1813 that the
occupation of the father was routinely given in baptism registers, and it
wasn't until the introduction of civil registration in 1837 that occupations
were given in marriage registers.
Note:
don't expect all of the information in the register to be transcribed -
transcriptions are intended primarily as a finding aid. I was extremely
impressed by the quality of the Devon transcriptions - the transcribers did a
far better job than I could have done! Some of the records in the collection were
transcribed by members of Devon Family History Society.
Advanced search
techniques: surnames
Sometimes it's really easy to find the
baptism or marriage you're looking for - it's when and where you expected to
find it.
But how do you know it's the right entry? No matter how rare a surname might seem, the chances are that it's a lot more common than you think
in the area where you're searching.
After all, the reason that a surname like Smith is so common is because
it's found in lots of different places, not because there are lots of them in
each place (it's unlikely that there would have been more than one blacksmith
in a village).
For example, in 1841 there were only 843
Calvers in Britain compared to over a quarter of a
million Smiths - which means that Smith was 300 times more common. However 456
of the Calvers lived in Suffolk, and whilst the
number of Smiths there was still much higher, at 6428 the Smith surname was
only 14 times more common.
Focus on an individual registration
district, such as Thingoe, and now the ratio is just
51 to 229 - still 4 times as many Smiths - but drill down to an individual
village within Thingoe RD, such as Great Barton, and
now the numbers switch around. In 1841 there were 22 Calvers
in Great Barton, but only 3 Smiths!
An
anecdote from my own experience might help you to remember this crucially
important fact. In 1975, after I was made redundant (for the first time) I tried
to earn a living by buying and selling at auctions. At small auctions they
didn't hand out bidding cards: instead you were expected to shout out your
surname when you won a lot. Most of the auctions I went to were in London, and
when I shouted out my name the response I'd get was invariably "How do you
spell it". But when I went to my first auction in Suffolk the auctioneer's
question was very different - it was "What's your initial?".
You might also think that a particular
forename-surname combination is unlikely to be repeated within a short
time-period, but you'd be wrong - in practice it was quite common for parents
with the same surname to choose the same forename. In some cases both children
may have been named after the same family member, perhaps a grandparent - but
it might simply have been a fashion. For example, if you search the GRO birth
indexes you'll only find three girls called Florence Minnie Calver, but they
were all born between in the few years from 1875-79 (and they're all relatives
of mine).
I find that the best way to gauge how
common a surname is in an area is to start with a wider search - for example,
instead of searching for Ebenezer Scrooge I might start by searching for all
Scrooges. If the surname is one that's likely to be spelled in a wide variety
of different ways depending on the whim of the vicar I'll use wildcards, or
tick the box that allows variants (Findmypast's fuzzy matching works pretty
well).
I've recently finished Surnames, DNA, & Family History by George Redmonds, Turi King, and David Hey - I found it compulsive
reading, even though none of the surnames used as examples appear in my tree.
Many of us have looked up the surnames in our
tree in surname dictionaries - some of you may even own a book of surname
origins - but it seems that often the compilers didn't appreciate the
difference between surnames and by-names (even the Oxford
Dictionary of English Surnames has many errors). By-names are rather
like Post-It-Notes, temporary labels that apply to individuals, whereas
surnames are passed down from father to son, like Y-DNA or the lettering in a
stick of seaside rock.
What's confusing is that the surnames and
by-names that you'll find in late mediaeval records look exactly the same -
indeed, surnames generally began as by-names. It's only when you find
convincing evidence of a name passing to the next generation that you know it
has become a surname.
Going through the Devon parish registers I
came across a later entry that initially fooled me:
© image courtesy of South West Heritage Trust
and Parochial Church Council
It reads "May 7: Grace the daughter
of William Pope de Besson and Deborah his wife was
Baptized", and following on from the entry in the marriage register (just
3 months before) which states "William Pope son of Thom Pope de Besson" it seems to suggest noble connections. But
further research showed that "Besson" was
almost certainly referring to Beeson, one of several hamlets in the parish of Stokenham, and as Thomas was only a husbandman it seems
likely that the suffix was intended only to distinguish this particular Pope
family from others in the area.
Poor Law records newly
indexed
3.2 million Poor
Law records in the London Metropolitan Archives collection at Ancestry have
now been indexed - previously the records were browseable,
but not searchable. You can search the Workhouse Admission and Discharge
Records, 1738-1930 here.
This first tranche includes records from
central and west London, but I understand that records from south and east
London will also be indexed in due course.
This series, published by the Society of
Genealogists has always been popular (there are several titles on my bookshelves),
but I'm willing to be that the sales will increase significantly now that some
of the key titles have been made available in Kindle format.
So far only 18 are available, but the
number has been increasing steadily - so I suspect that eventually most of them
will be available as ebooks. The titles already
available are:
My
Ancestor was an Agricultural Labourer
My
Ancestor was a Railway Worker
My
Ancestors were Thames Watermen
My
Ancestor was in the British Army
My
Ancestor was in the Royal Navy
My
Ancestor was a Royal Marine
My
Ancestor was a Woman at War
My
Ancestor Settled in the British West Indies
Also in the same series is a title that
all of us could make good use of!
How
To Get The Most From Family Pictures
Although at £6 or so they're more
expensive than most of the Kindle books I write about, they aren't novels that
you'll read once and throw away - they are works of reference that you'll go
back to time and time again.
The links above are for British and
Irish readers - most or all of the books are also available from Amazon.com,
Amazon.ca,
and Amazon.com.au
Tip:
when you visit Amazon please use the links in the newsletter, because even if
you end up buying something entirely different we may still receive some
commission.
Was that 1913
picture 'Photoshopped'?
Most of the readers correctly identified
that the photograph
which purported to show Beverley's great-grandfather hobnobbing with George V
was a fake - two photographs had been merged together, perhaps using a similar
technique to the one which a few years later produced the photos of fairies that
memorably fooled Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
Several of you noticed that the lighting
was inconsistent, but the evidence that Beverley herself found was the most damning
of the lot - she uncovered the original photo, which you can see here.
Tip:
until Christmas you can save 20% on professional photo editing at Repixl
using the exclusive offer code I've arranged - just follow this link.
And if you're in the UK they'll produce high-quality photographic prints at a
very reasonable price - just £1.49 (plus postage) for a massive 10" by
8" print on Fujicolor Crystal Archive Paper.
Adopted
ancestors: latest news
In early October I reported
that the Descendants of Deceased Adopted Persons Group, co-ordinated by
LostCousins member Frances, had secured a change in the law that would allow
relatives of adopted persons to obtain information that would identify the
natural parents. Adoptees have, for some years, been able to obtain this
information themselves, but their descendants have been left in limbo.
On the day my article was published the
Secretary of State for Education, Nicky Morgan, issued regulations
which, when they came into force at the end of the month, should have ended the
long wait for information - but according to Frances the agencies who act as gatekeepers
are shilly-shallying, saying that they need further guidance from government
before acting.
Yesterday I had an opportunity to speak
to Mrs Morgan at a function I was attending, and raised with her the concerns
that Frances had expressed to me. I can't promise that action will follow but
she was certainly familiar with the issue, even though it had been handled by
one of her junior ministers, and took a keen interest in what I had to say.
Note:
I was going to show you a 'selfie' of me with the Education Secretary - but I
realised that, after reading the previous article, you'd probably assume it was
faked....
Decision time? Big discounts on DNA
tests
When the paper trail lets us down, which
it inevitably does at various points in our researches, DNA testing may be the
only answer. Of course, it isn't the answer to every problem, but provided
you're prepared to spend a little time thinking it through it's amazing how
many problems can be solved - maybe not immediately, but over time.
Family Tree
DNA are the testing company that I use - and not just because they're cheap
(although it has to be an important factor, since DNA tests cost a lot more
than a birth certificate). The fact is, over the years they've been the choice
of most serious family historians - which means that when you connect with
someone through their site it's much more likely that you'll be able to
identify your common ancestors. Simply knowing that you're related to someone
isn't usually enough.
Right now you can save at least $10 on
all the key tests offered by Family Tree DNA. If you follow this link
you can save $40 on a 37-marker Y-DNA test, bringing the cost down to just $129
- less than half the price that some firms are charging (especially here in
Britain). Or save $10 on a Family Finder test, now only $89.
If you want to refresh your memory on
how DNA testing can help you, these links to articles I've written will help
enormously:
Using
DNA to knock down 'brick walls'
LostCousins
member solves dustbin baby mystery with DNA test
When you follow those links you'll
usually find more than one article that's relevant. If after you've read the
articles you're still in need of advice, by all means get in touch - that's
what I'm here for.
My AncestorsBETA
More and more members have been writing
to say how useful they've found the new feature - simply click the grey arrow
to check the census references you've entered.
For example, here's the entry from my
page showing my great-grandparents and their family in 1881 - try clicking one of the grey arrows:
|
1842 |
B M D |
England & Wales 1881 |
8 |
|
||
|
1842 |
B M D |
England & Wales 1881 |
9 |
|
||
|
1866 |
B - - |
England & Wales 1881 |
Blood relative |
|
||
|
1868 |
B M - |
England & Wales 1881 |
Blood relative |
|
||
|
1873 |
B - - |
England & Wales 1881 |
Blood relative |
|
||
|
1875 |
B M - |
England & Wales 1881 |
Blood relative |
|
||
|
1877 |
B M D |
England & Wales 1881 |
4 |
|
||
|
1879 |
B - - |
England & Wales 1881 |
Blood relative |
|
(Unfortunately this feature isn't
available for the Scotland, US and Canada censuses - this is a limitation of
the websites which host those censuses.)
Alan was particularly effusive in his
praise for this new feature:
"Having checked all my household entries using
the links it flagged up several issues most of which were typos. The other main
issue was with the 1841 Census, because I had used Ancestry to enter the data
on a few of the entries the folio was one too many which I have corrected and
advised Ancestry accordingly.
"This is a really useful addition to your website
and I would urge all members to check their entries, which is the only way to be
confident in matching with others. Furthermore because my family tree was
substantially researched on Ancestry I have viewed the census data on
Findmypast for my LostCousins entries which as you know are always available
even if you do not hold a current subscription.
"Many thanks again for your excellent work."
Bad news -
FamilySearch to discontinue copy images
Three weeks ago I reminded
readers that it was possible to obtain free digital copies of images from
microfilms held by FamilySearch in their massive library in Salt Lake City.
When I read that FamilySearch were to
discontinue their photo-duplication services I at first assumed that they were
talking about paper copies - but when I studied the announcement more closely I
realised that it applies to digital copies too.
You've got until 5th December to order
images - after that you'll have to go to your nearest Family History Centre
and, if they don't already hold a copy of the microfilm, pay for them to get It in. The cost is now £7.50 per film which could still be
very good value if there are lots of entries of interest.
FamilySearch state that this change is
being made because more and more images are becoming available online, either
at their own site, or at partner sites (such as Ancestry or Findmypast). You
can find out more here.
Mental health
records to go online
The Wellcome
Library is funding the digitisation of 800,000 pages relating to psychiatric
hospitals in the UK. The hospitals included in the project are: York Retreat,
St Luke's Woodside Hospital, Crichton Royal Hospital, Gartnavel
Royal Hospital, and the Camberwell House asylum.
The records will be released in stages
over the next two years - I'll let you know when the first records are online.
Ancestry launches Lunacy
Patients Admission Registers
A couple of days ago Ancestry.co.uk
made available 842,000 records from admission registers for both public and private
asylums covering the period 1846-1912. The information seems to be limited to
name, asylum, admission date and discharge date but this information might
possibly lead to more detailed records - for example in the project described
above. You can search the new records here.
Google belatedly
follow our example
Last year Google introduced a feature
that LostCousins has had for a decade - the opportunity to decide what happens
to your data after you die.
And yet, even though LostCousins has had
this feature for 10 years, 90% of members haven't provided the email address of
the person they'd like to take over their account when the time comes. Are you
one of them? Check out your My Details
page now!
What a coincidence -
or was it?
This week twin brothers in Birmingham
became fathers on the same day, in the same hospital. The births were just two
hours apart, and both babies were boys (see this BBC article
for more details). According to a spokesman for Ladbrokes, a large bookmaker,
the odds against this happening were at least 150,000 to 1 against. I assume he
wasn't being serious - the true odds must be closer to 100 to 1 - but I suppose
it helps to get publicity.
The fact is, coincidences happen all the
time - what would be really amazing is if there were no coincidences! David
Hand, who has twice served as President of the Royal Statistical Society,
argues that we're each certain to experience more than one once-in-a-lifetime
event in our lifetimes. According to his book, The
Improbability Principle (currently sitting on my Kindle), there are
five fundamental laws which intertwine to make extraordinarily impossible
events commonplace.
It's important for family historians to
have a good understanding of probability because we're
constantly having to make judgements based on inadequate - and sometimes
contradictory - information. But if we get it wrong we could find ourselves
barking up the wrong tree!
With Christmas coming up it's time to
feature a rather unusual mystery, one that has inspired a rather unusual book,
and could keep you busy through those cold winter days.
LostCousins member John Makin and his
wife Alice discovered a sketchbook dating from the first half of the 20th
century - and they decided to try to identify the artist. The first sketches
dated from 1925, and had been made on the voyage of the Balmoral Castle to South Africa in December of that year - so John and
Alice started with a list of the 225 passengers on that ship.
They've now published a delightful
little book which features the sketches. You can get it through Amazon
or direct from John's website,
which also has a lot more information. Will you be able to help them solve the
mystery?
If you're a subscriber to Which?, the
magazine of the Consumers' Association, you may have noticed a familiar name at
the end of the long list of impressive candidates for election to the Council
of Trustees. There are so many strong candidates that I'm not going to ask you
to vote for me - instead I suggest you read through what each has to offer and
make up your own mind about who will do the best job.
When I was at the Which?
Annual General Meeting last week I met Peter Vicary-Smith,
who started his job as Chief Executive of Which? in
2004, just a few months after LostCousins started. We don't just have a
forename in common - he also writes a column in Which?
magazine that might well have been called Peter's Tips
(had I not got there first!).
Whereas many charities have a trading
arm that raises money by carrying out activities that are only loosely related
to the aim of the charity (such as selling Christmas cards and gifts), the
Consumers' Association and Which? both fight on behalf
of consumers - which means you and me. All of the profits from Which? are paid to the charity, so
when you subscribe to one of the magazines or services that Which? offers you're helping to finance campaigns on key issues that
affect most of us.
Last week I made my first visit to the
Aldi store that opened recently in Bishop's Stortford. For some time I've been
reading (in Which?, of course) that some of the Aldi products are every bit as
good as the big brands, so I picked up some laundry liquid and also their
washing up liquid. Overall the prices did seem to be cheaper than at Tesco,
where I do most of my shopping - but the range is very limited, and most of the
products I buy from Tesco are on special offer (after a while you get to know
which items regularly feature in BOGOF and twofer promotions).
What I enjoy most, however, is picking
up bargains from the reductions shelves - not early in the day, when the
discount might be only 10%, but after the final reductions have been made. In
my local store this typically happens around 7.30pm, and when you pay 85% less
than the original price it's possible to afford some little treats that might
not otherwise fit the budget. For example, on Friday I bought fresh raspberries
for 30p a punnet, reduced from £2; on Monday I bought a pack of my favourite
sesame-seeded bagels for just 16p, reduced from £1.60
Sometimes discount offers and points
bonuses also apply to reduced items. For example, Tesco have a wide range of
pre-packed meat and fish that sells for £4 a pack, 2 for £7, or 3 for £10 - and
it's implemented by giving a discount of £1 on 2 items and £2 on 3 items from
the range, irrespective of the price actually paid. So when on Friday I bought
three packs of chicken fillets that had been reduced from £4 to £1 each the net
price I paid was £1 for the lot! Naturally the chicken went into the freezer -
which seems to be the best place for it, judging from this recent article
in the Daily Mail.
Have you noticed how often these days people attempt to justify scandalously high prices by
saying things like "it's only the price of a latte". As someone who drinks freshly-brewed coffee every
morning (typical cost 10p for a large mug) I find it really hard to understand
why so many people are prepared to fork out £2 or more for a cup of coffee from
Costa or Starbucks when they're out and about, yet drink instant at home.
I first started brewing coffee in my
teens when my aunt gave me a Cona coffee maker - it looked like a piece of
laboratory equipment, and I was always petrified that I was going to break it.
At first I would grind the coffee myself - by hand - but over the years I
realised that vacuum-packed ground coffee tastes just as good, provided it's
resealed after opening and kept in the fridge or freezer.
Today is Thanksgiving in the US, which
means tomorrow is Black Friday. Even in the UK retailers are announcing sales,
and in some cases they've already started - for example, Amazon
are selling their HDX range of Kindle tablets at £100 off (which makes the cheapest
in the range half price). HDX means that the resolution is higher than on an HD
TV, 1920 x 1200 - not bad for a 7in screen!
It'll soon be time to time to send out
Christmas cards. Back in the 1960s it cost just 3d (1.25p in decimal currency)
to send a letter, but now it’s over 10/6d (53p) for 2nd Class. Fortunately I've
still got a supply of 2nd Class stamps which I bought a few years ago for
little more than 30p - probably one of my best investments - and hopefully some
of you will have followed my advice to stock up ahead of the big increase (from
36p to 50p) in 2012.
Of course, for the rest of the year most
of my communication is by email - but Christmas is special.
Findmypast have added over 13 million Scottish
births,
baptisms, and marriages from the mid-16th century to the first half of the 20th century.
Thanks for taking the time to read my
newsletter - I hope you find it useful.
Peter Calver
Founder, LostCousins
© Copyright 2014 Peter Calver
You
MAY link to this newsletter or email a link to your friends and relatives
without asking for permission in advance - but why not invite them to join
instead?